Talk:Snowdon

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Snowdon has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 23, 2011	Peer review	Reviewed
December 10, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

Wales Top‑importance

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British and Irish hills

This article is within the scope of WikiProject British and Irish hills, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the hills and mountains of Great Britain and Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.British and Irish hillsWikipedia:WikiProject British and Irish hillsTemplate:WikiProject British and Irish hillsBritish and Irish hills

On 18 November 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Yr Wyddfa. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Grid reference

How about a grid reference for Snowdon? I think the grid used by the Ordnance Survey is pretty standard. Magnus 10:05 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

First time

I am making my first ascent this coming Saturday 12th August using the Ranger Path with my son, Sean, my brother-in-law Steve. Hope the weather stays fine....Can't wait! Tony White: Liverpool

Highest mountain edit and link to Nuttalls list

A.D.Hope in this edit [1] you made a change I am perfectly OK with, but linking to the list of Nuttalls in Wales to highest mountain when talking about the highest mountain outside of Scotland doesn't really work because it only shows the Welsh mountains. Also, checking the Nuttalls link in the infobox, I see it links only to the English Nuttalls which don't mention Snowdon. The weirdness here is that the Nuttalls are specifically a list of mountains in England and Wales, per the source book. That is how they were presented until an undiscussed split almost exactly a year ago. I have thus proposed a merge to bring this list back together in a manner that would both be useful and representative of the Nuttalls' book. Please see: Talk:List of Nuttall mountains in England and Wales#Merge proposal. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:15, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be honest, I only know the basics about the various UK mountain categorisations. I seems like you have things in hand, though, and the basic fact of Snowdon being the tallest mountain outside Scotland is at least correct! A.D.Hope (talk) 18:31, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder why shouldn't it just be "highest mountain in Wales"? Or at least move it being highest outside Scotland to later in the lead. Dank Jae 19:55, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It depends what you want to emphasise. We don't really need both statements in the lead, because if Snowdon is the highest mountain in the British Isles outside the Highlands then it must also be the highest in Wales. Personally I'd go with the more impressive record. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still probably helpful to also be clear that it is highest in Wales too. However always confused with the “Highest in the British Isles outside the Scottish Highlands” which is a very selective way of saying 76th highest on the British Isles when you ignore the previous 75, so not even a record. And prefer such selective wording to be secondary.

Like similar articles like Kongur Tagh do that, highest in a specified area then highest when compared to other areas. Just always considered the “highest outside Scotland” to be desperate.

I prefer the lead when this article was nominated to GA, “is the highest mountain in Wales at an altitude … making it the highest point in the British Isles outside Scotland”. Dank Jae 13:57, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in two minds, but can't really get around the fact that 'highest in Wales' is a bit redundant if it's also the highest everywhere outside the Highlands. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the end, this article opens with Wales, rather than "Snowdon is the highest mountain in the British Isles outside the Scottish Highlands, that is located in Wales" (not supporting such lead), best describe the defined area first IMO. Like saying Pico Cristóbal Colón is the "highest mountain in South America excluding Argentina" rather than firstly stating the clearer point that it is the "highest in Colombia". Dank Jae 12:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We could change it to 'highest mountain in England and Wales', which is the form used by Britannica and Visit Snowdonia, although I do prefer the current wording as it's that bit more precise. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:38, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am mainly proposing it be "highest mountain in Wales" first, with "highest mountain in British Isles outside Scotland/in England and Wales" made secondary really, with the latter more of a comparative description than a defined statement. Technically nothing wrong with stating it is the "highest mountain in England and Wales" aside the chance readers first think it is in England, so prefer the original GA wording still.

@Sirfurboy, opinions on this? You expressed no opposition to it, so I won't revert it. Dank Jae 12:45, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Actually just realising A.D.Hope you removed it being "highest mountain in Wales" recently so I am basically calling for a reversion, in line with the long-standing lead from GA. Dank Jae 12:47, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Highest in England and Wales would justify the link to the Nuttalls, mind. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:47, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like as good as reason as any to use 'England and Wales'. @DankJae, the first sentence states that Snowdon is in North Wales, so the wording shouldn't cause any confusion in that regard:

Snowdon, or Yr Wyddfa, is a mountain in the Snowdonia region of North Wales. It is the highest mountain in England and Wales, at an elevation of 1,085 metres (3,560 ft) above sea level.

You could also call it the 'highest mountain in the UK outside Scotland', but then the Nuttalls link would be less justifiable. Northern Ireland is also on a different landmass, so could be excluded on that basis. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still prefer "highest mountain in Wales, located in Snowdonia [...] making it the highest mountain in [other]" As both "North Wales" and "England and Wales" are less defined areas than Wales. But if you two agree it should be "England and Wales" rather than "Wales" be free to. Dank Jae 13:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the name for part of an area includes the name of the area I generally think it's fine not to be more specific: compare 'Lancashire is a county in North West England' to 'Shropshire is a county in the East Midlands of England'. The average reader can be relied on to know that North Wales is in Wales, surely?

One change I would make is to 'highest mountain in England or Wales', as that makes it clearer that Yr Wyddfa is in Wales as opposed to 'England and Wales'. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:14, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those regions of England are officially recognised with clear boundaries compared to "North Wales", luckily there isn't a higher mountain in Montgomeryshire.

No it has to be England and Wales linked directly, Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa is not the highest mountain in England. Dank Jae 13:20, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

no, but it is the highest mountain in either England or Wales. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about:

Snowdon, or Yr Wyddfa, is a mountain in the Snowdonia region of Wales. It is the highest mountain in England or Wales, at an elevation of 1,085 metres (3,560 ft) above sea level.

A.D.Hope (talk) 13:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still oppose “or” it is not the highest mountain in England but higher than any mountain in England, it doesn’t mean the same. Dank Jae 14:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Imagine re-adding Ireland for a bit, “it is the highest mountain in Ireland or England or Wales” still sounds wrong. Dank Jae 14:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'England and Wales' has the same problem. This is why I favoured 'Great Britain' earlier. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“Great Britain” would also need “outside Scotland” so at that point just keep “British Isles” plus you only suggested UK or England and Wales.

In the end, “highest in Wales” I find the most accurate statement at least first than using a broader statement with exceptions or confusing wording. But if you two believe Snowdon is highest in England and Wales rather than highest in Wales then go ahead, I seem to not be winning my case here. Dank Jae 14:24, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also tbh, “highest mountain” shouldn’t link to “Nuttals” at all, but to List of mountains of the British Isles by height, being a Nuttal doesn’t mean it is the highest. And I believe that link was shoehorned in the first place by the splitter of the Nuttals article? Dank Jae 14:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be honest, I've been thinking about the terminology to the point where I can't think straight, so let me take a break and come back to it. I'm not (and can't) impose anything though, including the current article wording, so don't worry on that count. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Be free to, although seems a weak consensus for your changes currently. So you don’t need to.

Although remembering you stating “highest in British Isles” is more impressive than “highest in Wales”, with the lead changed from “highest in Wales” to “a mountain in Snowdonia” still overall feels less impressive IMO. Dank Jae 14:59, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, how about:

Snowdon, or Yr Wyddfa, is a mountain in the Snowdonia region of Wales. It has an elevation of 1,085 metres (3,560 ft) above sea level, which makes it both the highest mountain in Wales and the highest in the British Isles south of the Scottish Highlands.I think this takes into account everything everyone has said. The Nuttals link will have to be abandoned, but List of mountains of the British Isles by height is arguably the more appropriate link. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still prefer the previous lead (ex. Nuttals link), it being highest in Wales as the most important IMO, but appreciate the attempts. @Sirfurboy, wbu? Need a third opinion. Dank Jae 18:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure I can be the one to choose between those, sorry. I have no strong opinion. Perhaps someone else will chime in. I have generally heard it as "highest in England and Wales". But why does England get included and not Scotland? Well... there are historical reasons why that might be so. As the UK becomes quasi-federal, those reasons may be less important now. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, so do we have a consensus around including the location, 'highest in Wales', and 'highest in GB outside the Highlands' in the lead sentences? As in, are we now discussing the format rather than the content? A.D.Hope (talk) 20:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of that was in the previous lead. (British Isles for GB tho) Dank Jae 02:03, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, I know. If it ain't broke, and all that. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about the lead stating it being "the highest mountain in Wales and 3rd by prominence in the British Isles"? Rupples (talk) 05:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would readers know what "by prominence" means. Dank Jae 11:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good suggestion by Rupples, but height above sea level is probably a more understandable measure for the lead.

I've tried implementing the lead I suggested above. Personally I do think it's best to lead with the location, for readers who don't know, then height and records related to that height, but I can see the 'height is most important' argument. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:37, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe readers wouldn't know about "prominence", but they might go on to enjoy reading about Nuttalls, Simms, Hewitts, Marilyns, Monros, Murdos, P600s, Furths, Donalds, Grahams, Corbetts, HuMPs, TuMPs, Hughs, Deweys, Donald Deweys, Highland Fives, Myrddyn Deweys, Sub–Majors, Dodds, Hardys, Wainwrights, Birketts, Synges, Carns, Binnions, County Tops, Provincial Tops, Vandeleur-Lynams, Arderins — not to mention Bridges, Buxton & Lewis's, Clems, Fellrangers, and Yeamans, and others I may have missed. Rupples (talk) 18:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC) Damn it! Omitted the Welsh 3000s. Rupples (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about putting it in the 'Environment' section? The thing with links is that they need to be understandable without clicking through, and there's more space to explain prominence in the body. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changing article name re: name change?

I suggest changing the name of the article & body of the article to reflect the official name change from Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa, (for example: Title changing from Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa (Snowdon)) and where mentioned from Snowdonia to Eryri.

Further, I suggest changing the arrangement of name translations in the body of the article from English first to Welsh first, as they are Welsh names for a Welsh mountain in Wales, not England.

I'm not going to just go ahead & make these changes without creating a topic & some discussion around it as they're pretty major changes and I do believe they should be discussed & considered before any edits are committed. CMDR Quillon (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need to consider WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES, and request a WP:RM proposing the title be moved to Yr Wyddfa. Should the RM be successful, the article will use Yr Wyddfa over Snowdon to match the title then. See the previous (failed) requested move for an idea. Dank Jae 22:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm aware of that which is why I didn't start a move request straight off the bat :) as the previous one failed I wasn't expecting this to succeed either, so it was more of a suggestion/discourse starter than a serious request. Thanks, man :) CMDR Quillon (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As this is English language Wikipedia and the common name in English is Snowdon then the page should remain as Snowdon. A change of the official name is irrelevant to Wikipedia (and there is no official name for something like a mountain anyway).

You are unlikely to find any opposition to changing the name to yr widdfa in Welsh language Wikipedia. 195.213.41.163 (talk) 12:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yr Wyddfa not widdfa 2.27.239.243 (talk) 23:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to “original” names have happened continue to happen. Ayers Rock has been rebranded to Uluuru on Wikipedia.

The change is absolutely real vent to Wikipedi. 217.72.125.96 (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uluru was proven to be the new common name on that article talk, it hasn't been proven for Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa yet. We don't give priority of "original names", or should we call Germany, Deutschland? We use the most-common, which in absence of a recent discussion, remains the long-accepted common name of Snowdon. If you wish to contest, please raise an RM providing evidence of Snowdon no longer being used by a majority of independent secondary sources, and are using Yr Wyddfa instead. Dank Jae 16:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Use of Eryri in English"/"Use of Yr Wyddfa in English" sections

I've started a discussion at Talk:Snowdonia#"Use of Eryri in English"/"Use of Yr Wyddfa in English" sections about whether these should be separate sections or part of the the Toponymy sections on the respective articles - if you have a view, please could you contribute there to avoid splitting the discussion. TSP (talk) 16:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]